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Up Topic Open Technical Section / C1 Technical Chat / Pulling hair out! Difficulty starting, any suggestions??
- - By rexer200 Date 04-04-2009 20:13
My silver C1 200 has recently refused to start in the mornings. Basically when I first crank it over it will normally fire once or so but not start. For 2 mornings running I have been there cranking it for about 15 minutes or so, until the battery was flat
If I do happen to get it started (i need to just catch it right somehow) then it'll tick over perfectly and run as normal. If I stop the engine and restart then it starts no problem.

I have a another backup red C1 200 so today I've swapping and testing, here's what I've done but still not managed to get it working!

Swapped battery
New iridium spark plug (plug was wet when I pulled the old out)
ECU reset
Swapped ECU
New ignition (HT) lead and NGK cap
Swapped coil
Swapped air temp sensor (top of airbox)
Swapped idle control device

I've also checked the spark by pulling out the plug and earthing it on the frame. When I crank the bike over it only seems to spark every 3 seconds or so. Why isn't it sparking more often?

Can anyone suggest what to try next? As stated above once I get it started it runs perfectly :-?
Parent - By jp72 Date 05-04-2009 06:39
I don't know if there a Club C'mon around and available for you. It would be worthy to start a diagnostic.
Parent - - By superted Date 05-04-2009 07:40
About the only thing you haven't changed is the pickup, which involves taking the side off the engine. Before you go for that check the connector and cables.
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 05-04-2009 09:49
Thanks for that, i'll check and compare the spark from the good working C1 and then I'll take a look at the wires and the pickup.
Parent - By chairman21 Date 05-04-2009 18:21
I had the same problem. One fine day it just wouldn't start properly. In the end it turned out to be in need of an update downloaded at Jap & German. Never had a problem starting again. Try and see if you need the version 2 firmware update.
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 06-04-2009 05:41
I've now down the same cranking test with the plug earthed on the frame on the good C1 and the spark occurs uch more regularly - so my problem is definately spark related and not fuel. So as you said I guest the only thing it can be now is the TDC pickup or the wires to it.
Are there any other quick tests I can do before buying a new pickup?
Parent - - By Andrew Date 06-04-2009 08:00
I had exactly this problem recently and did all the same checks as you. The air temperature sensor and software upgrade improved the starting, but it still wasn't quite as it should be when cold. The starter sprag/clutch turned out to be the problem. Does your starter remain fully engaged on the engine when you are turning it over, or does it release every time the engine fires? The latter was my problem and I think this was confusing the ignition trigger and causing the spark to be erratic at the plug.

If it's the starter clutch it's usually a weak spring, which can be tightened up at no cost. If the starter is behaving normally, then it sounds like you are on the right track with the ignition trigger. I guess to test it you need a continuity tester across the pins in the plug, then slowly turn the engine with a socket on the variator and see if the continuity goes on and off as the magnets pass the trigger. When you get continuity hold the engine there and wiggle the wires to see if there is a problem with them.

I was told by one of the German site members that some of them have had problems with air leakage aroung the injector. The test for this is to start the engine (ha ha) and squirt brake cleaner around the injector, presumably it's flammable so care is needed :-) If there is a leak the engine revs will rise.
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 06-04-2009 08:54
Thanks a lot for your experience on the sprag. If it is the sprag then it would explain why once started it runs perfectly. If it were the TDC pickup or wires then I'd expect it to sometime faulter once running. The starter does sound normal (ive done over 17,000 on this C1) but what I'll do it remove the varriator cover and see if the engine is being turned at a regular speed, or if the sprag is at fault I would expect to see it stop and start.
Parent - - By Andrew Date 06-04-2009 12:52
If the sprag is slipping it tends to make a "clack" noise followed by the starter motor spinning without turning the engine. The sound it makes is obvious, so I doubt if it's that at fault, from what you say.

That leaves the injector seals as a possible problem. You could also check compression, but the fact that it idles normally would suggest the valves are OK.

Failing all that try a software upgrade at BMW. I think they charged about £25
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 06-04-2009 13:54
I've ruled out injector seals and compression because when I check the frequency of the spark on the spark plug by earthing it on the frame it's much fewer sparks than the working bike.
I can crank the starter for 5 seconds and only see the spark once or twice - its also very random. On the good bike I see the regularly every half a second.
Parent - - By Andrew Date 07-04-2009 07:53
If you want to give the C'mon diagnostic tool a try add your name to the list. It will give you fault codes and also tell you which software version you have. Not sure if there's a fault code for the ignition trigger, maybe Jerome can tell us?
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 07-04-2009 11:11
Thanks I'll add my name to the list to borrow that!
Unless someone can tell me why not to do it I'm going to try parking the 2 C1's side-by-side, opposite way around and plug the TDC sensor from one bike into the other and visa-versa (leads look like they'll reach). This way I can visually check the spark (using earthing on frame method) from the good TDC sensor on the fauly bike and the other way around.
Hopefully this method will confirm if the TDC sensor or the wires going to it are at fault. Obviously spark plugs will both be removed to do this

Anyone know of a reason why not to do this?
Parent - - By Lawrie Date 07-04-2009 15:40

>opposite way around and plug the TDC sensor from one bike into the other


Forgive my ignorance, but whats the TDC Sensor??
Parent - By Drynotwet Date 07-04-2009 18:44
TDC is Top Dead Centre

I dunno if the C1's got one or not though.
Parent - - By Drynotwet Date 07-04-2009 18:45
the TDC (if there is one) sensors might not be earthed via the plugs-they might need the frame of the bike as an earth, and unless you connect the bikes frames together as well, the sensor might not be earthed (As an eg-the oil sensor has only one wire, and is earthed through the engine, not the plug.)

I'd swap the sensors over rather than this method, which introduces more variables!
Parent - - By Lawrie Date 07-04-2009 20:15
I'm fully aware what 'TDC' is, but I've never heard or seen a TDC sensor on the C1, or anything-else for that matter!!

The ONLY 'sensor' for want of a better word, on the flywheel side is the ignition pickup, & even that is not at TDC, & of course it WILL cause a spark on EVERY revolution, but only the one during the firing stroke (4 stroke engine) will be used, you will also see that this ign. pickup is NON-ADJUSTABLE, therefor all ign. advance & retard is fully controlled by the ECU. as is the firing & on-off timing of the injector.
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 08-04-2009 05:11
OK same question...

Unless someone can tell me why not to do it I'm going to try parking the 2 C1's side-by-side, opposite way around and plug the 'IGNITION PICKUP' sensor from one bike into the other and visa-versa (leads look like they'll reach). This way I can visually check the spark (using earthing on frame method) from the good 'IGNITION PICKUP' sensor on the fauly bike and the other way around.
Hopefully this method will confirm if the 'IGNITION PICKUP' sensor or the wires going to it are at fault. Obviously spark plugs will both be removed to do this

Anyone know of a reason why not to do this? ...and should the frames be earthed together?
Parent - - By Andrew Date 08-04-2009 08:16 Edited 08-04-2009 09:06
Actually the manual calls it a "TDC trigger" or "ignition trigger". Cut paste from the manual:

12 11 060 Replacing TDC trigger
• Remove securing screws and remove ignition
trigger.

I only know this because I have spent some time recently studying the manual for this area and burrowing about in the "freewheel" and "magnetic wheel" areas (being careful to use the correct expressions :-)  )

So Rexer was quite close with his description.

The next bit is just my opinion, I wasn't really studying the trigger that closely while i was working in that area.
I think the TDC trigger is probably a switch which is activated by small magnets on the outside of the magnetic wheel. If you disconnect the TDC trigger plug under the right rear body panel you should see that here are 2 connector pins in there which have continuity between them when a magnet passes the trigger and no continuity between magnets (or vice versa). On that basis you might find that your idea of cross connecting the 2 bikes works, provided both ignitions are on. I don't see any reason to earth the bikes to each other. But don't blame me if it all bursts into flames :-)
Parent - By rexer200 Date 08-04-2009 11:41
Thanks Andrew!
I've just contacted Wollaston on the price of a "TDC trigger" / "ignition trigger" and with my 10% club member discount they quoted

£107.99 :-(

I'll test tonight then and maybe put something in the wanted section!
Parent - - By Drynotwet Date 09-04-2009 00:34

>Unless someone can tell me why not to do it


1-it might not help
2-you might break the one you use to test it
3-are you going to run both bikes, or turn them on the starter only? I'm a little unclear why you don't just put the "good sensor" in the "bad sensor" hole, and plug the "good sensor" into the "bad C1"

Am just trying to be helpful here!
Parent - By rexer200 Date 09-04-2009 06:53
Thanks for your comments,
3. the main reason why I don't want to just swap the sensors is the extra work in taking the sonsors off. Also, if it turns out its not that then I've got to put them all back again.

I've been out the past couple of nights but the plan is to do the lead swap toning, I'll let you know how I get on...
Parent - - By Drynotwet Date 09-04-2009 00:32

>I'm fully aware what 'TDC' is, but I've never heard or seen a TDC sensor on the C1, or anything-else for that matter!!


I thought you probably would be aware, but as your post read:

>Forgive my ignorance, but whats the TDC Sensor??


I thought perhaps not! :-)

I've seen,removed,cleaned,replaced,broken,sworn at and bought new TDC sensors before, but not for the C1. Audi use them, so do Honda, can't rememebr which model of Honda, pretty sure the Audi quattro as I had 12 of them over the years.
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 19-04-2009 07:07
Got to the bottom of this problem yesterday by pulling the alternator case off.

Inside I found the following broken washer!



On further inspection I saw it was washer that holds the reluctor on, the bolt was still in place though!



Does anyone know if anything else should be where I've shown the arrow? Or is it just the washer then the bolt that holds this on? The hole is much bigger than the bolt so I imaging the washer is under considerable strain. I notice that inside is threaded but maybe this is just for the reluctor removal tool? The reluctor itself was still in place with the woodruff key in tact but I guess without anything holding it on there was some sideways movement.

Why did the washer break in the first place, maybe there was too much sideways load on it?

As a result the outside of the reluctor has hit and damaged the ignition pickup, hence the difficultly starting

Parent - By Drynotwet Date 19-04-2009 13:32
can't help, but wanted to say well done on a great bit of investigation!
Parent - By Lawrie Date 19-04-2009 14:58

>Does anyone know if anything else should be where I've shown the arrow? Or is it just the washer then the bolt that holds this on?


Correct, all there is, is a bolt & a machined-washer, ( do NOT use an 'ordinary' washer) the drums tightness is dependent on the taper & key, a 'standard' method of holding rotating parts.
When fitting these parts, align keyway to slot, place drum onto shaft, push right up as far as you can, then give the drum a sharp whack with a copper-mallet then fit & tighten the bolt & washer.
The same goes for removal, remove bolt & washer, fit extractor-bolt or large sump-plug, do up reasonably tight, then all you do id to whack the bolt or plug whilst at the same time 'pulling' on the drum, it will fly off!!!
Threadlock will help on the bolt when replacing.
Parent - - By bolt-on-billy Date 19-04-2009 16:56
have you checked the crank? the muppets who ruined lees old engine failed to put it back together and the woodruff key slot was destroyed along with the reluctor slot.

the numpties also used the wrong sprag then different washers and bolt which also wrecked the alternator windings.

you can pop the reluctor off with the 8mm hex bolt holding the oil pressure switch in place
Parent - By rexer200 Date 19-04-2009 19:01 Edited 19-04-2009 19:13
Thanks both for your input. I'll check the woodruff key and put back with the copper mallet as described.
I'll keep you updated!
Parent - By rexer200 Date 19-04-2009 19:21
"you can pop the reluctor off with the 8mm hex bolt holding the oil pressure switch in place "

Thats good to know becuase I checked Lees and it still had this hex bolt in, which confused me!
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 02-05-2009 08:18
Quick question, do I need to remove the 3 hex bolts inside the Magneto to get it off? I had a quick go this morning and it seems very tight.
Parent - - By rexer200 Date 03-05-2009 09:53
OK, got the magneto off now and inspected and all looks ok. Woodruff key, magneto and crank nose are all fine.

One thing I did notice is that the crank seems to have about 1mm side to side movement. I took the varriator off to check too. There is no detectable up and down movement so I guess the bearings are ok,however the side to side movement might suggest the crank needs reshimming??
I notice BMW sell different size crank shims for the varriator side but I guess the crankcase needs to be split to do this??

Anyone had any similar experiences of this?

How much side to side movement is acceptable?
Parent - By bolt-on-billy Date 04-05-2009 18:05
side move is normal so dont panic as its oil gap. getting the three bolts for the sprag off is a bugger unless you leave it on and slacken them before removal.
Up Topic Open Technical Section / C1 Technical Chat / Pulling hair out! Difficulty starting, any suggestions??

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