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Up Topic Open Technical Section / C1 Technical Chat / every week a new (bigger) problem
- - By aware Date 10-11-2012 14:47
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJmWlree3Io&feature=youtube_gdata_player

So thanks to this forum I fixed the abs issue I had...
but my C1 LOTUS VERSION (aka Lots Of Troubles Usually Serious) came with a new bigger problem.

it doesn't start. it sounds like variator related.
I had this problem for some 2-3 days. After some tries it started eventually but now not any more.
I checked oil level and found it below dip. I changed oil hoping the variator was thirsty for lubrication but no luck.
As I hate waiting weeks the prestigious bmw service center needs to fix my unimportant child of bmw as well as charge me a new bike in expenses, I need ASAP to take some action.
It seems to me that I need to strip down the variator.
So my questions
a. what you believe is going on with the no start issue?
b. where may I find some little detailed instructions on how to strip down the variator?
c. how soon I need to buy a new bike ?... BTW this is NOT the flooded bike.......
Parent - - By C1200 Date 10-11-2012 17:03
Dont touch the variator that isnt the problem al, it is not variator related at all I am thinking,leave well alone or you will end up with enough bits left over  to make a washing machine..
The problem sounds like the starter motor itself not engaging properly,if thats the case its thats the case its the starter sprag clutch thats slipping and not engaging properly...
Parent - - By aware Date 10-11-2012 17:10
Damn I have a second starter mortor at my second home 2 hrs away...
I will take it out and open it to check if I can see something
BTW this starter sprag clutch is nuclear science too?
Parent - By Drynotwet Date 10-11-2012 18:03
Be very careful if you try to open the starter. It is easy to ruin them, and then nobody will want it as an exchange for a reconditioned one.
If you don't know what you're doing inside the motor, don't break it finding out! (
(and I don't know how to fix them inside!)
Parent - - By C1200 Date 10-11-2012 22:57
yep Dont touch it,leave well alone
Parent - - By aware Date 11-11-2012 06:03
How can I check the sprag clutch ?
Parent - - By aware Date 11-11-2012 07:37 Edited 11-11-2012 13:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ZslMPwU-M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Still clueless.......

Update : I removed the starter and I can see this gear shown in picture.
I can easily roll it with my finger. Is it normal ?

PS: I wait the gurus to wake up...
Parent - - By aware Date 11-11-2012 18:03 Edited 11-11-2012 18:40
from the fellow forum I got a suggestion that this seems to be sprag clutch related.
May I please ask:
1. Can it be starter motor or this spinning and occasionally grounging leads to a strong conclusion about the sprag clutch possibility?
2. How come this was a symptom of only 2-3 days before becoming this big of a problem that actually now it never starts? (take please into account that it became now a little colder here 15 degrees celsius vs 25 degrees celsius before the problem AND also the bike was running with oil level low, slightly under dip).

Al
BTW 40.000 kms on the clock only... What can I expect @ 50K, 60K..... :(
Parent - - By aware Date 11-11-2012 18:40
P L E A S E   guys someone say something
Parent - - By bolt-on-billy Date 11-11-2012 23:11
I did, on the forum I told you it was the sprag clutch and what to do with it :-)
Parent - - By aware Date 12-11-2012 07:31
I know and thanks indeed.
I now need to stip my bike... ouch
Parent - - By aware Date 12-11-2012 13:43
Couldn't source a m16. Here in greece this metric coil is rare.
So tightening and tightening I eventually broke the slump plug.
It's inside and I can't get it out.
Any ideas how to do it please ?
Parent - - By jeb Date 12-11-2012 15:56
to remove the bell see the other forum and B,O,B,s post explaines how to do it.     when its off you should be able to get the broken bit of the sump plug out by tapping it round with a centre punch or something similar.     the correct size bolt for the bell removal is 16mm. with a 1.5mm pitch,   this is a fairly standard metric size.         you could try getting the broken bit out with the bell in place by this method.
Parent - - By aware Date 12-11-2012 18:33 Edited 12-11-2012 19:24
I managed to get the slump plug out.
There is no way I can get the bell out, and this inch type bolt is very rare to source.
BTW I now realised that while I move the bell, now the gear of the starter rotates.
Can it just fixed ?
Now I miss one slump plug, I need to find Renault alternative...
Parent - - By C1200 Date 12-11-2012 23:49
I will try and order you one here and post if you want al
Parent - By aware Date 13-11-2012 09:47
yes please if you kindly could.
BMW asks 22 euros and I need to wait 10 days ....
Parent - - By jeb Date 13-11-2012 10:27
i have a spare bolt allan but not with a ball bearing like the one i made for our spares department.
Parent - - By C1200 Date 13-11-2012 11:19
hello mate :-),well I guess we could loan that one to al providing he posts it back?
Parent - - By aware Date 13-11-2012 11:44
so...
a. found after 3 hours of sniffing around all shops a sump plug alternative.
b. found also a fine black m16 bolt that fits perfectly.
c. I put the m16 and tightened enough. I hit slightly the m16, nothing. I hit harder. I tightened more. hit again. nothing. nothing. nothing.
d. ground zero again now.... have no clue what should I do
Parent - - By C1200 Date 13-11-2012 13:23
ship it over here :-)
Parent - - By aware Date 13-11-2012 14:44 Edited 13-11-2012 19:17
Wish I could...
Any idea how this bell can be extracted ?

Should I use some ice to shrink it a bit????
Parent - - By Clunkfish Date 13-11-2012 20:52
Are you tapping the M16 bolt vertically? You don't need to tap it towards the crankshaft, you need to hit it so that the bell is knocked at an angle to the crankshaft, breaking the seal, so hit straight downwards on the end of the bolt. You don't need to hit it too hard!

I know all this because I got it wrong when I tried to do the sprag clutch :-)
Parent - - By aware Date 14-11-2012 08:08 Edited 14-11-2012 08:11
I got it out eventually.
Hard thing. I hit and hit and hit in all directions.
Then I thought that maybe I need to tighten that little extra, so I put the wrench, tightened and also gave a hit with a hammer to the wrench.
Then I hit vertically the m16 2-3 times and it popped out.
Now the difficult part comes...
Spring is already somewhat broken, damaged.
I got the sprag clutch out and two bits fell on the floor and the spring doesn't seem very healthy.
I will post a picture in the next hour so you can give me some advise.

PS: Is this Loctite 243 a necessity when putting back the 6mm bolts?
Parent - - By Clunkfish Date 14-11-2012 12:29
If the tapered end of the spring is OK, and the rest of the spring hasn't come unwound at all, you can cut about 1cm off the other end then screw the tapered end back in, to give you an intact but slightly tighter spring.

If you wind the tapered end a few turns the wrong way first, it will naturally rotate into the receiving end and won't try to undo itself, if you see what I mean.
Parent - - By aware Date 14-11-2012 16:24
Thanks for the input.
...Is this Loctite 243 a necessity when putting back the 6mm bolts?
Parent - - By Clunkfish Date 14-11-2012 16:53
All the flywheel bolts need threadlock. It doesn't necessarily have to be the Loctite stuff - any decent threadlock should be fine.

One idea that Bolt-on-Billy came up with for the garter spring, thinking about it, was to use a fine strand of copper wire to link the two ends of the spring after you have shortened it and joined it back together, as a sort of safety net to dissuade it from coming apart again.
Parent - - By aware Date 14-11-2012 22:49 Edited 14-11-2012 23:08
Eventually fixed it.
My wife was gold. Pure gold. She threaded some thin copper wire around the sprag so the bits remained in place.
Then she cut almost 0,8cm of the spring, winded in and also put some copper wire at the joint.
Then we put the spring and by pulling softly we removed the thin copper wire around the bits.
ONLY THING I REASSEMBLED THE BELL WITHOUT THREADLOCK... so I would like to ask:

a. Is this a horrible mistake or I can use the bike for some days the bike until I locate some.
b. Can I use some super glue instead?

Because theory is good but practice works better (as this forum has proven many times. A good example is this fix for the sprag clutch spring that BMW asked me to pay 420 euros to replace......)
Parent - - By jeb Date 15-11-2012 12:18
super glue wiil not do the job cos it is not oil resistant.   to be sure use some threadlock now .   can you imagine the result of the bell coming loose and chewing up the generator coils and the pulse cable.   not good.  if the spragg clutch comes loose and the bolts go into the generator it does not bear thinking about.
take the generator cover off again and threadlock the spragg clutch bolts one at a time.  clean the oil off them before using the threadlock.  as with the centre bolt.
will take you perhaps 2 hours to do the job      well worth the effort for peace of mind i think.
Parent - - By aware Date 15-11-2012 13:56
Got some blue threadlock and will do tonight.
This forum again saved the day for me.
Parent - By C1200 Date 15-11-2012 17:10
well done al..:-)
Parent - - By bolt-on-billy Date 15-11-2012 17:53
had it snapped? it looks like bits of a broken spring all around that picure and the last one.
Parent - - By aware Date 16-11-2012 08:15 Edited 16-11-2012 19:11
It snapped most probably because I overdid it in trying to start it
Parent - - By bolt-on-billy Date 16-11-2012 20:07
you must be getting good at this by now :-)
Parent - - By aware Date 16-11-2012 20:56
Good thing yes, I am looking forward to fixing the next nightmare ...
Kidding of course I just want to be hassle free.
I put threalock 2-3 drops in each of the 4 bolts.
Now I can sleep peacefully.
Parent - - By bolt-on-billy Date 16-11-2012 22:22
until tomorrow anyway :-)
Parent - - By aware Date 17-11-2012 06:40
I was wondering if the bike can start by applying some good 55Nm force of my driller at the 19mm bolt of the variator...
there is a risk the bolt can loosen dangerously.
there is a risk that after bike starts, drill will swivel and fly on my face.
but the upside is that sprag clutch, starter, battery breakdowns at least will not need road assistance to move to our exclusive c1 service garage ....
Parent - - By bolt-on-billy Date 17-11-2012 07:50
I do wish it came with a kick start sometimes
Parent - - By jeb Date 17-11-2012 10:10
i did make a starting handle with a ratchet on the end of it to stop it flying up into your face when it starts.   it turned the engine over a treat but you need to reach 300 rpm before it will start which is impossible to do by hand.       i found that the variator nut did not move at all cos the torque needed to turn the engine over is a lot less than than the 60nm required tightening torque of the nut.      still thinking about a motorised starting device using a battery drill and ratchet but this would mean carrying a drill round with you all the time.
Parent - - By aware Date 17-11-2012 12:13 Edited 17-11-2012 12:15
How you can combine a drill with a ratchet that locks in one direction and is free on the other ?
I prefer to carry a drill. Lots of space inho.
I just am afraid how the drill will behave after the engine starts.
Parent - - By Drynotwet Date 17-11-2012 19:51
How about an impact drill, which (I think) has a clutch arrangement which slips.
?
Parent - - By aware Date 18-11-2012 10:35
I can attach this.
And try some bursts. After it starts I must pull it quickly and gently...
Impossible ?
Parent - - By Drynotwet Date 18-11-2012 10:58
On reflection, the imPact drill is not a good idea.

It may loosen the bolt immediately before turning he engine.
I wouldn't try it,
A normal drill may be better but wear eye Protection etc.
Parent - - By aware Date 19-11-2012 09:21 Edited 19-11-2012 11:12
If something goes wrong we will add a post to the accident log section ?

BTW after reassembling the alternator cover there is some oil leakage...
this thin paper gasket had only one little part torn but stuck on the engine side. this means that I should try to tighten a little more the bolts but most probably that I need to apply some gasket glue....
viva the c1 !!
Parent - By aware Date 21-11-2012 18:49
I put some gasket glue. Will drive and see...
(and will carry with me some extra oil)..................
Up Topic Open Technical Section / C1 Technical Chat / every week a new (bigger) problem

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